Not only should abortion be legalized in Jamaica, but the buggery laws should be repealed and the Jamaican Church should issue both a formal apology to the LGBT community but should also be made to fund these clinics and pay the LGBT community six million US Dollars compensation for the way they have abused them. More women should be elected to Parliment and there should be a clear and permanent seperation between Church and State.

I belive that abortion in general is psychologically, morally and constitutionally incorrect. Hovever i do believe that in certain cases such a rape victim and for mothers who are at risk because of the pragnancy should be given the right to an abortion. resean been, the mother can always attempt to have a child some other time in the future and in the case of the rape victim no should be forced to endure the burdens of such a tragedy (i.e. both mother and child).

That is why birth control is readily available and the sex act is reserved for tose who are emotionally an d mentally prepared to deal with the consequences of sex such as pregnancy.

It is a pity that this person prefers to prostitute herself and then destroy the consequencies that are known before the act. How about being responsible and take the necessary precautions (there is a wide choice) before engaging in sexual intercourse?

There is need for women to lift theor moral standards and respect themselves. Would you object to a thief killing your sister because he wanted something she has that he cannot afford to purchase? What is good for the goose is good for the gander , buster!

Wow, i never thought about it like that the human race as a virus with shoes on...lmao.It just seems to me that this has become somewhat of a religious debate...It really should be what the majority wants thats the beauty of a democracy.. lets face it we can't take religion out of it because we are a very religious nation and our religion often governs how make most of our decisions look at our pledge its a freaking prayer. Most of our laws are based on religious principles and is the backbone of our constitution...I don't think we're ever gonna be able take religion out of it...so yeah

That's more like it; that's what Gordon wants to hear

It may sound grim, but in the words of the late great Bill Hicks, "I'm tired of this pat on the back humanity bullshit... We are a virus with shoes."

We come and we pave the earth, stink up the air, and poison the waters, and all we can worry about is whether somone has the right to decide to not to continue to multiply on this virus.

How about spending that breath to explore space for a new planet to destroy, before the air on this one becomes so volitile that we cannot breathe, the land cracks open to swallow us, and the sea boils with the most evil of demonic-esque mutations of sea creatures.

If you are a christian this is where your thoughts should be. Pray for the world to go past 2012... STOP IMPRESSING YOUR BELIEFS ON OTHER PEOPLE!

Thank You very much.

Mr Gordon Swaby. You obviously know little to nothing of Bible history. No respected historian believe the bible was written by Constantine. Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I guess you will say they are also written by Constantine.

As to the abortion issue. You obviously believe life has no value. People can willy nilly get rid of it. Sex has consequences. STI's and AIDS and pregnancy. You don't solve one problem by creating another.

We are sliding down a slippery slope, that will lead to very bad consequences. Human life must be valued very highly. Think about Hitler,Poe Pot and Idi Amin.

This is has again proven that anything that has ties to sex and its ramifications whether it be sexuality or otherwise becomes clouded in ramblings of religious biases.
Very few of these arguments are presented with any consideration of how these mothers may feel. Despite the minority or so called well to do females that get rid of a fetus because of the inconvenience. There's no reason to assume that the majority of women who do have abortions did because they honestly saw no way out. We never seem to acknowledge that there are situation where u have no family to create well thinking individuals. Broken homes and unhappy homes are bound to create what we have in society. And that is whole legion of unguided sometimes unloved teens who have no real direction in life. We're now in a space where broken homes are the rule and not the exception and then we sit on our high stools and tell these kids that they should not abort their potential child?.
I'd like the pro lifers to tell me in what are the constructive environments that will be provided to this child to make sure they become settled individuals who won't become menaces to society. Please don't bring up adoption as an option because I've seen these places in Jamaica. An orphanage becomes a den for pedophiles and other crimes against these children that are just too devious to mention. Sexual crimes against children is not gender specific. The horror stories in a lot of homes where mothers prostitute daughters as soon as they're "of age". We have a growing domestic disease that are raising children that place no value on there own lives.
The problem as someone sited earlier in this panel ignorance. In an atmosphere of love most challenges can be overcome but ask yourselves how many of these potential mothers have this atmosphere around them.
We should also look at what policies we have and ought to have to govern families. All those sperm donors out there and mothers who never want to support there children should be punished if they refuse to honor the responsibility of the child they have already brought onto the earth. There nothing in place to make sure the father's name is on the birth certificates and as far as i'm aware there was only one immaculate conception and even that is debatable. Then the mothers can cherry pick who they want the father to be and raise the child in a lie. Father not the father because he does'nt have the status she wants and puts it on another man. There's so much fuss over what to do with a potential life than we've forgotten as a people the value we should place on the children that are already here.

I think this topic is funny, just in the fact that everyone is so so one sided on it all.

MY THOUGHTS... TO anyone who cares...

I dont think religion should play any part in the court's decisions, as there is supposed to be a definate separation of church and state in our Democracy, but it should play a part in the hearts and morals of those who believe it.

Second of all to that person that mentioned it... isn't atheism lack of religion? Someone stated that it should be mentioned because it is the opposite of christianity, but it really is just the lack of.

Third, I have been doing lots of research on this as a med school project, and the answer is never just black or white. There is a lot of gray area. A lot!

And finally, where is the line drawn? I know it may sound far fetched, but if the government takes the right away to make choices about the tissues growing in our body, where does that stop? It could be like the book 1984...

The right to have that choice was given to us by the forefathers of our country... If you dont like it... Leave. Simple as that.

Or if you dont believe in abortions...Dont have one! WOW! ISNT THAT SIMPLE!!!

Thank You.

Alright clearly this argument is not gonna end. People are always gonna want have abortions because A They don't want the responsibility of taking care of a child B They can't afford to take care of a child C Sad case they get raped or molested.I think that whatever the decision about this issue that it should just reflect the majority of what Jamaican's want.I personally just believe that abortions are wrong that's it if i'm an idiot for it then so be it. There are so many arguments for and against this issue and in spite of all the insults I believe that now more than ever and have taken into consideration the many view points being presented. So thats it,its in God's hands.

\Begin Quote/
People are so stupid saying that, “Oh what if your own mother did it…then then..then you won’t be here!”
Oh shut the fuck up. Save it. Try to put yourself in the shoes of these women who go through this. It’s easy for someone to just say…oh murdering is bad, oh I’d never kill. If you were in that situation you would do anything if enough pressure is there. Now shut the fuck up and look at it from another perspective for once.
/End Quote\

This is the second time I'm posting the exact thing I've said before to that idiot J.C

Now Paige if you want to really share your ideas with the rest of us try not to use capital words to emphasize your points. It only makes you look like a complete fool and child. I understand you not being able to fully think about this topic without getting all hot and bothered but grow up before you wish to speak to constructive thinkers.

Oh and if my mom decided to abort me i wouldn't have known now would i? But that was not the case, she was in a marriage and was READY for children.

You stupid bitch; if so many people are waiting to adopt why are there so many street kids and others in foster homes; you can adopt all of them while your at it; you dumb fuck.

IT'S CALLED ADOPTION you idiots. 2 million couples are waiting to adopt, and would gladly take more than one child. I'm doing extensive research on the topic of abortion, since I have to deliver a speech on it.
WHAT IF YOUR MOTHER DECIDED THAT SHE WANTED TO ABORT YOU?!
How do you feel about that?

Oh J.C if you wish to think linear then I must insult you. I am an asshole but a smart one at that. However in your latest post you made no sense. I hope this was not intended. Try next time to be a bit more clear so that I can reply to the best of my ability. Oh ok after carefully reading it over I got the jist of it. I do have respect for life but I like to see everything from both points of view. I am not just a humble, wealthy christian living a wonderful life but I am also a "criminal" who has to steal to feed his family. Maybe you should stop being so humble and try to think about what that person goes through to feed his family. I hope you get what I am saying, I'll put it in simple terms for you.

You should stop thinking like the rich person who can take care of his kids and start thinking like the woman who doesn't have enough money to pay to feed 1 child let alone the one on the way. What would you do J.C? Would you come on a website and talk about respect for life or would you do what has to be done.

Regards.

oh did that happen ... any way let me continue

.... the is very clear that nurder applies to human and human only ... so the queston is can we prove when a fetus actually reaches that state of consciousness. Also what holds for a very developed state (England) does not necessarily hold for a poor third world state (Haiti). There is clearly no comparison wthe kinda support structure that exist in England does not exist in Haiti and won't any time soon so do we apply the the same kind of expectations for a very very poor person in Haiti who "accidentally" got pregnant.

Further more what about the social implication of a child whose gene pool is very suspect a lot of persons in the very developed world due to access to far reaching research in genealogy have come to accept that some personlity straits are passed on though the genes of the adults to the child thus cause a lot of childeren to be left in the care of the government for many a years and be rest assured even in these very developed countries a lot of these children are severly traumatised by there living conditions. So just imagine Haiti.

My take on it is where it isn't necessary then the law should ensure that you are sanctioned for taking terminating a fetus. And that once the conscious life stage has been attained then the termination should be regarded as murder. This of course must be determined by each state according to the capabilities to provide the kinda support structure ... this is adaption, chlidren wards and homes, a effecient child protection agency ...etc etc

Just my thoughts on it

Ok it has all been said in so many diferent words .... but it has all been said and i laud this authour for daring to mention these every touchie controversial topics.

Seriously if i understand right the pro life are suggesting that by the mere existence of life woulld suggest that murder was committed. I abhor the unnecessary taking of any life but please be reminded murder is a legal terminology. It refers to the in tentionally taking of life of ... and i stress of a sentient being with a high level of intelligence. Although it was not worded in this manner

Oh my is right Lyndell are as much of an asshole as u seem to be ,alright fine i don't know what some one is going through unless you walk a mile in their shoes but a life is still a life have you no respect for it well that's my opinion that the beauty of this website.

Big ups Swaby i like what u doin here

Oh my!!!

People are so stupid saying that, "Oh what if your own mother did it...then then..then you won't be here!"
Oh shut the fuck up. Save it. Try to put yourself in the shoes of these women who go through this. It's easy for someone to just say...oh murdering is bad, oh I'd never kill. If you were in that situation you would do anything if enough pressure is there. Now shut the fuck up and look at it from another perspective for once.

Dude, Murder is legal...when the police or any person with a licensed firearm does it, or in self defense, because sometimes it's necessary

well after reading all the comments i must say i'm glad that we are thinking and i mean really thinking about this issue in Jamaica. I think that abortion should not be legalized because people what if your mom decided that oh i'm not ready for a child or god forbid was raped and conceived u would u say oh abort the child i don't think so. Its like asking whether murder should be legalized .
I don't consider myself a christian so its not a oh its in the bible thing we need to stop making this a religion issue.

Beautifully said, beautiful indeed, best comment i've seen in a while, thanks jenny

i have to say that i agree with gordon swaby. i'm not here to debate, just to give my opinion. i live in a nation where abortion is legal, and am very glad of it. my mother had an abortion when she was younger because her cousin raped her, and a pregnancy insued. She says she would have had the child, but the pain of looking at it would have been too great, while she could not see her child go to another, so adopton was not an option. that child would have been my family, but i have to tell you i'm glad she had it aborted. the child probably would have had an unending sense of guilt over it's birth father, if ever it was to have found out. it's life would have been shadowed forever, it's bond with it's mother destroyed. What would you have done? what if you had no choice? This is why it should be legal. you MUST have the choice, i don't care about religion in this aspect. God isn't me. he doesn't have to live with the stress, the guilt, the anger, the responsibilty. A baby should be born into a loving, ready enviornment. if there isn't one, adoption could be a choice, and i'm also ALL FOR this. but sometimes, even that would be worse for the child. there is a bond unmatched between a mother and her child. it's beautiful and untainted by the world around. i appreciate it to no end. but Abortion is a choice every woman or teen should have, for no matter what people say, it's OUR body, OUR choice, and they have NO Right to take this away. in my country there's a saying 'life liberty and the pursuit of happiness' life is a right, and i understand this could go to both sides of this argument. but the life a baby depends on the life of the mother, and if the baby effects the woman negatively, it will in turn effect the baby. i'm sorry if i've gotten off track, i'm actually quite serious about this subject. God has no say in my life, nor does any other man woman or 'presence'. i am in control and if an abortion is my way to 'control' my body, then i shall. if you think it's wrong, let the guilt be the punishment, don't let the baby. this causes more damage to the child than you could ever believe. don't let your child, your lifeforce, be the one thing you regret most. let it be your joy.

Where in kingston jamaica can u get an abortion done, no questions ask?

Abortion, to legalise or not to legalise...well, there are many agruments to support both sides, but my particular interest is in something Shey said. What about those who will abuse it? statistics show that many girls are having their second child by the age of 17. If abortion was legal, they would be scraping their wombs many times by the age of 20. Is there a rule against usng contraceptives? Why don't we argue for the institution of prevention programmes and sex education, rather than abortion? If a gil/woman is careless enough to have unprotected sex everytime, and then decide to rid herself of what results each time, what kind of society woud we be living in?

Shey also mentioned that there are options such as adoption available, why not look at some of these options. Fact is, though abortion is illegal, many are still doing it and so if there is an extreme case and abortion is a must, it can be done. Making it legal, will only push more young people to practice unsafe sex, because there are quick fixes available.

There are too many double standards in our society. We argue against the use of certain texts in school and the issuing of contraceptives in school, which would help to reduce the instances of unwanted pregnancies, thus eliminating the need to legalise abortion. Think about that! If we are irresponsible enough to be having unprotected sex, then we should be willing to take on the consequences of our actions. Otherwise stay in school, think about the people you will be disappointing, and think about the fact that ou are financially unable to take care of a child every time you think to have sex.


PS. I didn't even need to mention the church, it wasn't necessary, because there are many other moral ad ethical issues to discuss.

lol at Gordon's final comment.

You know I come here to read some intelligent arguments and that I have received. Yet still there are the few fools who would post something like, "Abortion is wrong end of story" and would frequently use capital letters as if that would help us to understand their utterly foolish points. Here they are, standing here fighting and arguing like if any of them have a slight ability of power to change this world. You sit there at your computers typing away at how the bible says this and the bible says that. Do you have any idea what year it is? When last have you been outside? It's funny how those who are not in difficult situations are quick on the dial to assume, determine and attack the actions of others. How foolish of us all. I appreciate the select few who have actually spoken about this as if they were part of society and not a manipulated individual in an absurd cult bordering on insanity. Abortion should be an option, we are not God. We are not allowed to determine what is right and wrong, we are only allowed to try and make our lives easier in what way we can while following the laws of the land. There should always be options, just as you had the option to post here, just as you had the option to read my comment, the option not to commit suicide and the option not to kill. We all have choices to make and let's not manipulate laws to fit our cultures. We must always consider the situations of others before putting our own personal ethics on them i.e judging. This must be done if you wish to be a humanitarian. Good luck with that.

"Laws are created to help societies not people."

“Those who want to change the world only wish to spread the wealth they don’t have.”

How much I contradict myself, I hope that makes you think.
I am very conservative but when it comes to this topic I'd like to think of myself as undecided.

I think you meant that it should be legalized, either that or your stupid.

A common argument against abortion is that a woman who is "old enough to have sex and get pregnant" is old enough to care for a child. I don't know how many of the people who use that argument have taken a course in child development or developmental psychology, but if I had to guess, my guess would be that few, if any, ever have. The average Jamaican female begins menstruating at age 13, last I checked. I doubt that a 13-year-old child would make a good parent; I do not doubt that a 13-year-old child could become pregnant. Some anti-choicers go so far as to argue that pregnancies caused by rape or incest should be carried to term; after all, "there is adoption." I beg to differ. No woman, child or otherwise, should be forced to carry a child to term if it is the product of an act of abuse or violence. The pregnancy would serve as a constant reminder of the attack, and the child, if no adoptive parents could be found, would spend its life as an unloved, unwanted child in an orphanage, or in a series of foster homes, or being cared for by its mother, who would more than likely hate it. Is this good for the child? The child would likely grow up to become not a productive, responsible member of society, but a link in a cycle of teenage pregnancy and child abuse, or worse. If a woman cannot have the option to spare herself and her fetus this fate, if it cannot even be on her list of choices, then she is not free. Men do not have to deal with the fear that comes from knowing that they could become pregnant from a rape. Women do. It is not the place of men to dictate women's lives, any more than it is the place of a woman to tell a man whether or not he can have a vasectomy. Women need the option, the choice to abort a child. Most women, I believe, would rather not have to live with the guilt and anguish that comes from knowing the consequences of their decision, but the decision must be there for them to make. Thank you.

I do believe that abortion should not be legalized

lol, i still think you need to read what is on the site again, i think its its the most logical thing to preserve life at all cost, don't you? and its not about hate, its not even about us...

I've seen youth4life site ... maybe you guys shuld be more interested in winning some souls ... and stop hating each other .. not to be rude but seriously we need to think logically ...

but instead we all want to protest ..

third world thinking?? Jaevion?? we could go on and on about first world thinking and how ignorant that can be, but back to the issue at hand.

if we cant mind all these kids and we do not want them, maybe we should not be getting pregnant. mek sense?
secondly we can mind them, because most of the women getting these abortions are part of the middle and upper class, they just find a child inconvenient and do not want them. that is what i especially have a problem with because a persons life cannot be determined by how wanted they are. we don't want any mad men and homeless people walking on the road begging your money every day, we should kill them too? that follows from what your saying.

thirdly, you do not know anything about Youth for Life and their message, so check out the web site
http://youthforlifeja.com/?page_id=2
and then you can come back and comment.

i hope you change your mind.

Ahhh bwoy .. when are we seriously gonna get with it ... abrotion has been illegal since forever, and what has been the result of these unawanted pregnancies that are unplanned for ... a society that we are all so worried about and deem everything generation X does abominable, frigthening ... oh lord .. this is too much to bare. lol.

Seriously, from the first time i heard the abortion debate i was of one damn view .. allow it to be legal .. and the policy changes had it quite down pact - so i dont think we should have a problem. And all the ppl on dionne's beyond the headline that even were so uninformed about what they were saying ..

gordon - you took my thought trust me ... cuz we cant mine all these kids and we dont want them ... if YOUTH for LIFE will agree to adopting these kids whose parents couldnt abort the pregnancy then i am all for making it illegal --- but the reality the church nah duh it a ra*s --- them young people dont even want to witness to a soul which is the responsibility as a child of god to even consider taking up parenting ... the worlds most time consuming career of all times ...

lets get reall .. or maybe i just wasnt made for the damn backward third world thinking.

Gordon Swaby err.

i said Gorden Shirley, i ment gorden Swaby, sorry.

Here is a logical argument, life limits choices.
All medical and scientific evidence proves that the fetus is a human life, from eight weeks there is every organ bone and the heart is beating, the child is able to move, feel pain, and swallow. it is a human life!
A woman may have a right to abort a baby, but the baby has a right to life and when there are two conflicting rights, the right that will cause less harm supersedes the other! IN THIS CASE THE RIGHT TO LIFE SUPERSEDES THE RIGHT OF CHOICE!
Gordon Shirley, when we begin to make decisions and choices that determines who lives based criterions such as how convenient and wanted a person is to society, we begin slipping down a deep and dark road that ends in anarchy. the right to life is the most fundamental and important right in our constitution and to take that right away, we tear away the very fabric that holds this country together.
i do not rest my case...

what tha heck? why not kill tha freaking baby and get over it.
if its a problem in our society,get rid of it.Why hold back,these people are jerks.

I was hoping to find a different kind of discussion, but I guess not.
So let me speak to the religion issue, which has really bugging me:

All those who have posted "in defense of Christianity" and "morality" have not really stopped to think what either of these mean, and how it relates, or doesn't to social issues regarding sexuality.

First, what is being argued here as "Christianity" is really a specific political viewpoint. That is, its a particular interpretation of scripture that is now being promoted as public policy. Too much of that already happens here in Ja, and we should resist this latest effort with all our might.

The problem is, nobody ever stops to tell these so-called Christians that they do not represent, and thus cannot speak for an entire faith and belief system. That's like arguing that Osama bin Laden represents all believers in Islam. Chupidness dat! These extremists (I use that word deliberately!) have been allowed to hijack the way Jamaicans think about what is right and wrong, and it is creating such problems for us. The inability to have a meaningful discussion about abortion and women's reproductive health in Jamaican society is a perfect example of this. These people who come on the blog and write in the newspaper shouting others down - that's highly unchristian behavior in my view.


The other problem of course, is that those Christians who do recognize that God gave them brains and expects them to use it to think, are silent, and distance themselves from the hubbub. Instead, they need to engage and even set an example for others to see that there is diversity in how people approach Christianity, and that not everyone thinks and acts the same way. And that is as it should be.

Lots of Christians like myself don't approach the question of abortion as a sin distinct from anything else we do on this earth. Lots of Christians also don't see abortion as an important issue, except when some people, fundamentalist Christians included, try to use the law to punish women. But we don't hear much from those who don't see this as a referendum on Christianity. So, with only one side crowing and bawling, it does appear as if there is one "right" way to think about this, and one "wrong" way. That is far from true.

Second, so what if you believe abortion is a sin, etc. etc.? That's the moral framework you choose to use; make your decisions accordingly. However, your belief system is not, and ought not to be, the guide for the legal system that governs other people's lives.
Last time I checked, the point of the law was not to decide what was "right" or "wrong", but what was "legal" and to provide guidelines for what is socially acceptable for the body politic, and what was not. "Legal" and "right" are not the same things; don't confuse them.

I think stupidity is immoral, and if I could make that point of view into a law, I would. Maybe. Probably not, if I stopped to think about it. Who would such a law serve or benefit? What will it have changed? Will the quality of people's lives be better? Will the society be a fairer place? In my moral universe, justice and fairness matter a whole lot. (check Micah 6:8 all you rabid bible-beaters). I'm not just interested in punishing people and making them abide by my worldview. It's much more important that they can live in peace, have the resources to make the choices that are best for them, and be able to think and reflect on their own lives in their own time. It is not for me, or for anyone, to say what the best choices for them will be. There will be some who will choose stupidity over knowledge and thought; I'll just have to figure out how I'm going to live in and share a society with them. That's what my faith helps me to do; it prevents me from declaring war on idiots, killing them and hiding the bodies.

Many of the laws in this country are unjust and commit serious wrongs against us as citizens. And i will reject and protest them as long as I have breath in my body. Some of those heinous laws, like this anti-abortion law on the books, might just be changed in my lifetime.

Third, Christianity in general is not very affirmative of sexuality. Fundamentalist Christianity in particular is rabidly anti-sex and looks to control and clamp down on any possibility that people could get any pleasure out of sex. Any way they can tamp down on women having sex, they will try to do so. Hence the ramblings about all the "irresponsible sexual behavior" that women will exhibit should abortion be legalized. What is this "irresponsible sexual behavior" again? Does it include what these extremists entertain in their midst ie. the church leaders who are preaching that women must be covered, and must marry their babyfathers, at the same time they are molesting the children in church and using "counseling" to harass and sex off young women? Probably not. Dem so-called Christians need to get up off women's bodies and stay the hell out of our drawers and our bedrooms.

Fourth, since when have these so-called Christians championed anything that is genuinely good for Jamaicans? These religious folks are not at the forefront of dealing with poverty, violence, hunger, environmental hazards and all nature of injustice committed against us, nor do I see them organizing to pass legislation to make our lives better. What? Those are not "moral" issues too? And now you want me to believe that they are really interested in the health wellbeing of women and children? Give me a fucking break!

The bottom line: each of us is free to decide what we think is right or wrong, however we come to that -- even if we didn't read past Leviticus -- while also recognizing the limits of that kind of absolutist framework, for ourselves and how we live with others in the world.

When it comes to the rules that govern the lives of the people in the society, we need to think about the common good, and not simply about using ourselves as the model for how everybody else should live their lives. And there are no easy answers for how to do that. That's why good research, active, public debate, and informed discussion matters. Of course, many of our politicians and citizens are not so smart about this. For precisely this reason, I am very worried indeed...

What you guys should realize is that an unborn baby is not really alive as it has no heartbeat and according to the ''teachings of the bible'' a body without a heartbeat is dead, well not in so many words but you get my point. It's just a bundle of cells feeding off the woman's body! So having an abortion wouldn't be killing a life because there is no life to kill.

If that's al you have to say then you should have never commented in the first place

abortion is wrong full stop

abortion is wrong full stop.

You don't get it do you, if not having sex was as simple a writing it then many would avoid it, but obviously it's harder to abstain than it looks. It's harder now than it was 30 or 40 years ago, sex is in advertising, it's all over the internet, adults talk about it around children, so you think teenagers would not want to experience such beauties of life, it's like your at a cliff, about to jump off, and you have a couple million people behind you telling you to do it, and just a small minority telling you not to.

My parents would have the right to kill me if they so desired, if they were facing certain problems i.e suppose a couple is married, husband leaves wife at home, gunman breaks into the house, rapes the wife, gets her pregnant, your telling me the wife should carry and bear that child? I think not, you don't seem to understand the situations people face and the only option is abortion.

Another Scenario couple is pregnant baby, is deformed, has down syndrome, they know this while there pregnant, your telling me they should bring this baby into the world? to deal with all the emotional stress involved when abortion could have been a viable option?

If your such a devote Christian then you should follow the bible to the T, and i'm pretty sure you don't. Denise, what are you Male, Female. I'll go on to assume your a female, i hope you realize that in the bible it exhaults male over female in every way possible. Your willing to accept this a woman, your telling me you've never lied before?, your telling me your still a virgin? or you waited on marriage to have sex?

The Bible is not a half and half thing, you can't believe half and disregard the other half, if it's so holy then you should believe EVERY Single word in it

Christians DO have the right to "speak there belief", but they should not go around trying to force it on everyone, everyone else is elaborating on what they believe in, but there not sending threats and all to let there belief be heard, Christians are always the aggressive ones, the ones who are quick to pull the trigger.

Most of the laws of the land are extracted from the Bible, and that is exactly why we're having the problem we're having today.

I can bet you a million dollars you know nothing about the history of the bible, you see it, you use it and you ask no questions. Well let me put some light into your darkness. The New Testament was written in the 4th century by Constantine and his council by their own words. Their OWN laws, to control the populous, the bible has been altered so many times through the centuries it's almost laughable, there is NO way we can base our laws of it, don't get me wrong, i believe in God, but i refuse to believe in the traditional teachings in Christianity of him, his image has been corrupted through the mouths of the so called prophets, pastors etc. They manipulate it to there own liking, understand something before you accept it, do not take something without asking questions.

So i'm telling you NOW, you go do your research, because all you Christians seem to do is throw threats about what God is going to do if so and so is done without even sitting and analyzing the situation. Moses killed many people, did he have the right to enter heaven? Your the one who said we have no right to take life, i beg to differ, sometimes it's necessary, because if someone breaks into my house and wants to kill me, surely I'm going to kill him first, but no i guess you as a Christian would sit there and tell him to kill you. You and your contradictory statements. What you should have said was that. Killing should be the last resort, if it's not necessary leave it alone, because they may be consequences.

Take this into consideration:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

- Epicurus

I rest may case.

why shouldn't christians speak for their belief?
isn't everyone speaking for theirs?
abortion is not a human right. no one, absolutely no one has the right to take a life just as no one can give it.
why shouldn't the nation refer to the bible when making a choice?
where does the law of the land come from?
it is the principles of the bible that forms the foundation for the initial laws of the land. our nation has laws where if an individual kills someone, there is an offence to the land and the same if he/she steals, so why cann't the decision be made from the bible?
it has been done before, why not again?
This nation and world needs to realize that there is a GOD who is higher than any and everything and it is the same GOD that saved this very nation from numerous hurricanes among other things and HE is going to judge both people and the nations.
If abortion is legalized Jamaica will pay dearly.
Do your research and see what happened in other nations.
GOD IS GOD AND HE IS NOT BOUNDED BY OUR FABLES ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS AND ALL THE OTHER THINGS WE PRETTY UP AND CALL WHATEVER WE PLEASE. GOD WILL BE AND IS EXHALTED WITH OR WITHOUT YOUR PRAISE. HE DOES NOT NEED US AS WE NEED HIM. LET US AS A NATION SERVE THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD NOW, TOMORROW MAY BE TOO LATE.

With every action there is a reaction therefore all things have consequences whether they be good or bad. let's face the fact of the matter, when two individuals decide to have sex whether it be protected or not, the possibility of the female becoming pregnant is always present. if a condom or another contraceptive method is used, what gives the assurance that they i.e the method of contaception won't fail. no method of contraception is 100% safe. Therefore if a couple believes they are mature enough to have sex then they should be ready to deal with whatever consequence may follow. let's look at it logically, if the consequence is wrong then isnt the action wrong? we as a nation need to stop thinking that it is the "being caught" which is wrong. NO it is the action. So if whatever reason a couple would not be able to care for a child then they should not be having sex. If we step in fire aren't we expecting to get burned?
ABORTION SHOULD NOT BE LEGALIZED!!!

Think about it, do your parents have the right to kill you?
It is no different!!!
A life is a life no matter the stage.
ABORTION SHOULD NOT BE LEGALIZED!!!

Let me ask you one question, do you think it should be legalized?, i want a woman's opinion on the matter.

Gordon Swaby....I know you have never been to a gynaecologist but i will tell you this much....if you go to one with the notion you may be pregnant, they first sit you down and ask you if you want to keep it...and somehow sneak in the argument that it can be taken care of if you don't wish to continue......this is why I am watching this debate carefully...whether or not it is "legalised" is another thing. By the way, during the first trimester, the fetus tries to expel itself naturally...this is why some women don't confirm to the world that they are pregnant, until after the first 3 months...just making a contriubution to the discussion.

Well said Lyndell, well said, i could not have said it any better myself

guess what I am trying to say is if murder (abortion) is wrong then homosexuality is wrong with it. There is no half good half bad when it comes to Christianity.

Molding the religion to people's needs.

"Let's support homosexuals but disprove abortion."
A lie is a lie. A white lie is still a lie.
A sin is a sin. No matter how small it is, it's still a sin.
Let's not mold it to fit our needs and lifestyle but rather if you wish to be Christian stand by what the bible says.

Read this article in the Gleaner, basically backed my reasoning:

"I applaud the efforts of the Government of Jamaica in trying to bring the country into the 21st century and legalise abortion. I always find it interesting how the Jamaican populace, including concerned Christian doctors, strive to be like the First World, yet when it comes to the most basic of human rights, they prefer to live in the Dark Ages.

What gives the Church and other concerned civic groups the right to dictate what a woman should be able to do with her own body. These people should get off their high horses and face the reality of what women have to face in today's Jamaica.

Abortions are currently taking place and will continue. It is the Government of Jamaica's responsibility to provide women with access to safe abortion. This is a well-known recommendation made by the World Health Organisation as a means to reducing maternal mortality worldwide. I hope to see the laws revised soon.

- Concerned Obstetrician and Gynaecologist, Toronto, Canada "

Very good point Leon. But if she does not have the say then who does? Surely something like this can't be placed in God's hands because he is not with us physically and is not used for making decisions in out society today. However, a mother does decide whether the child lives or not. The mother decides to feed the baby or not, to take care of this child or just leave the baby for dead. Who says that legalizing abortion will encourage more careless sexual behaviour? As far as I see it the only factor that could contribute to careless sexual behaviour is ignorance. Legalizing abortion is only there as an option. I do believe that people can change and even if a kid is brought up on the streets they can make something of themselves but that is not a real reason to stop the legalization of abortion. Murder maybe a reason but not the "people change" theory.

Wow. This seems to be a heated topic. Then again abortion was always a heated topic. I disagree with you. I know of a lot of successful people that were to be aborted, a few of them were street people. A woman has a right to choose what happens to her own body, but not what happens to the life of another human being. Legalizing abortion will encourage more careless sexual behaviour.

Well said, Lyndell, i'd elaborate more on that, but i won't for some very..erhm, not obvious reasons:P

Legality is what makes the difference. If it isn't legal then society calls it a crime and if the Bible doesn't allow it they call it a sin. It's a chain of corruption and control, physically limiting us as human beings. "You do what the justice system destests and you get sentanced to jail. You do what the Bibles detests and go to hell for eternity. But remember, always remember Jesus loves you. Even if it means burning in a firey furnace of pain for the rest of your soul's life. Jesus loves us all."

Sorry about that rant, I shouldn't let me opinions consume my thoughts =)

I hope in the end the best works out for Jamacia.

It's the same with everything else, as long as humans are involved there will be abuse, just like how the religious groups are abusing religion right now by trying to incorporate it into the law, but whether or not abortion is legalized, people will continue to do it, might as well legalize it

I admit, there are sticky situations where abortion may look like the favourable options, there's always gray in between the black and white. But there's the risk of those who abuse it -- and you know there will be -- it's called human nature. Personally, I'm not ready to open pandora's box.

I don't know but I tend to get that feeling when it comes to alot of things. Not only religion in particular. Like I feel that alot of people do bend the rules of religion to suit them. This has to do with alot of the homosexuals and abortion as well. I am positive that the Bible clealy states something against homosexualism yet still some churches find it to be alright to practice. I mean it comes down to the point of, "Some of the stuff in the bible is true but some of it isn't" (Which if such a stupid statement). That's what it looks like to me at least. I don't think that some of what Jesus said was right and someother times he was just dicking around. To me that is absurd and absolutely false. However abortion is a tought topic. How can we even begin to argue this case? I believe that if someone wants an abortion that bad and the option isn't given to them there might be a great chance of that baby being abandoned somewhere. That is the only reason I support the option of having abortions legal. I do not entirely agree with it, I just think that having the option is a good idea.

The last bit was a joke, humor me. I don't think pastors,lawyers etc had to bring religion into it, that's what annoyed me. Some christians do abortions for various reasons even though it's against Christian principle ( is it really?), some christians are homosexuals, as far as i see it if it doesn't suit them, then they won't follow it, not all Christians practise what they preach.

Freedom of religion - Pastors can preach, lawyers can practice (don't know what religous lawyers are, kind of an oxymoron here in North America) according to their moral compass which happens to be guided by biblical principles.

Again, I don't need to see the need to bring religion into it. Just they have the right to preach what they preach, you have the right to preach what you want to preach. I hope you aren't implying that the people getting preached to are being controlled/brainwashed by their pastors -- they make their own decisions, and yes, there are social pressures exerted by church communities to keep unplanned children -- just like there are social pressures that push people to abort children. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

I'm looking at this from a philosophical/sociological viewpoint.

Please don't tell me you're using a ficitional movie to prove a point...

Actually we need to bring religion into it seeing the religious lawyers, pastors etc are making decisions based on the teachings of christianity.

How many times does adoption turn out well, especially in Jamaica. after all this is not Juno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juno_%28film%29)

There are other options than having to keep the child and trying to raise it yourself -- why not choose adoption? Heck it might give them a better chance at a good life than you did.

Why do we have to snuff out a life just based on social pressures? Ask the many people who are suffering day by day if they are happy to be alive. They will say YES!! Otherwise they wouldn't be there now!

I agree with you Lyndell, we don't have to bring religion into it to discuss this.

I stumbled onto this today and took quite a read at both of your arguments. You see if you bring Christianity into this then surely you should bring Athiesm into it as well. For we both know that they are both religions to some extent or shall I say by definition. But then again I see religion having nothing to do with any of it so I ponder as to why I even brought up such an idiotic point. Oh well, I seem to be losing my boundries and losing you as a target audience. Let me try this again.

It has to do with ethics of an idividual. However, I think it should be legal. People should have the choice. We have the choice to be homosexual or not don't we? Doesn't that go against the teachings of Christianity? Yet still, it isn't that much of a heated topic anymore. Seems like society is beginning to accept alot recently. Abortion is a choice of the parents and they should have the option. Whether it is right or wrong is the call of a higher power. The option should still be available nevertheless.

That is all.

The person who gets to decide this is primarily the mother,the bearer of the child, i don't see how should be able to tell her whether it be the church, parents, governemt close friend or anyone else what she can do with that baby growing inside of her. Trust me someone in my family, close close close close relative of mine's mother had him as a teenager, she could have had an abortion, but she'd lose a beautiful life, but what would have happened if that child did not turn out well, it's a gamble, a gamble we should all avoid.

What happens to the child who comes out and suffers all there life? What should happen to such a child? "processes and systems should be in place to make that happen..." Yes system SHOULD be in place, placing emphasis on Should, but they are not, and if they are systems in place, it's a half done thing.

Let's say as a teenager i get my girlfriend pregnant, it was unintentional, but never the less it happend, the girlfriend and i decide we cannot have the child


1. We'd put our education at risk
2. We could not support the child financially
3. We'd dissapoint MANY people
4. The relationship probably wouldn't last


Your telling me with all these consequences we should still go ahead and have that child, i think not.

Let's look at it from a philosophical point of view:

Who are we to decide who gets a chance a at good life and who doesn't? There have been many stories of people who have dugg themselves out of poverty and off the streets and have gone on to have families and meaningful lives. Who are we to say that can't happen? Why should we assume that they are better off not existing? I think that every being deserves a chance and that processes and systems should be in place to make that happen.

I am by no means bashing Christianity, if i came across as doing so then i apologize, but i think that people sometimes need to think rationally before making decisions and not always reffering to the bible to make decisions, in truth we all interpret the bible differently, and that can sometime cause problems, i also mentioned in my post that not everyone in our society are Christians, so they not live there life based on Christian principles, so i ask, how can we make laws based upon Christian values if everyone in our society are not Christians.

Do we even consider the people who are not Christians ? Or are we as Christians selfish and only look out for ourselves, i think the majority of Christians need to stop being Naive and look at the bigger picture.

The society would be better off if some parents decided to have an abortion, many wanted to but couldn't because it was illegal, some children are born and suffer greatly because of it, while you have the lucky ones who have things well, it's not peaches and roses for all chilren who were born, some would have preffered to not have been born, did you take them into consideration.

Once again i apoligize if it seemed as if i bashed or am bashing Christianity in any way. I respect everyone's views, be considerate and respect mine.

"These idiots prefer a child to be born and end up on the streets because there parents could not take care of them.."

Ask the person on the street if they would rather have been aborted because their parents didn't take care of them. Maybe you should try to silence your anti-religion bias and develop a better argument.

I've heard the pro-choice, pro-life debates all before -- but this post is just another rant against Christianity.